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I noticed several comments in the shoutbox regarding whether people loved, liked, hated, or were disappointed by The Dark Knight Rises, Christopher Nolan's finale to his epic Batman trilogy.

Obviously, in the shout box, we don't want to mention anything that will spoil the film for those who have not yet seen it, so I decided to start this thread to allow for spoiler-filled discussion of the film.

I have my own thoughts, which I will post a little later, but I'd like to hear some opinions from others before I post my reactions on the film. I've seen it twice now, and the second time helped to clarify some perceived plot-holes and confusion, while also reinforcing some of the flaws that still remain.

Spoiler-worriers, turn away now. Let's hear some thoughts!

I really enjoyed this film I also saw it twice, and (although I still barely understand Bane) this is a very suiting conclusion. It doesn't forget about Batman Begins and kept me on the edge of my seat

There has been talk about lack of character development (that is what Batman Begins was for,) and confusing plot holes (have you seen Inception?), but Nolan ends his trilogy on a great note.

I've been going to the movies a lot this year, and this is my favorite so far. While The Avengers was very enjoyable, The Dark Knight Rises takes the cake with suspense and (Nolan) style. I give it a 10/10

I had some minor issues with it, but it did exactly what it set out to do: ROCK. My full thoughts here.

Nikerun, I would argue that while DKR is a better piece of filmmaking and (possibly) storytelling, Avengers was much more fun to watch and wasn't as dreary and heavy-handed as Nolan's films are. For me, the "fun factor" is what helps Avengers edge out DKR for my fave film of the summer... but just barely.

ShokXoneStudios wrote:

QUOTE (ShokXoneStudios @ Jul 30 2012, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had some minor issues with it, but it did exactly what it set out to do: ROCK. My full thoughts here.

Excellent review, SXS! You're more forgiving than I am probably going to be when I get to my thoughts, but you also saw things in a way that I didn't, and it's making me re-assess my views a little bit.

Okay... so here are my thoughts... they will contain spoilers and I'm probably going to ramble.

Catwoman: Meow! I was initially unsure if Anne Hathaway was right for the part, but not only did she fill out that extraordinary catsuit, her ability to turn-on-a-dime from a seemingly meek, helpless, and scared young girl into a sexy, calculating, and powerful woman was really awesome. I know Bane's story was the center of the conflict and plot, but I kept wishing for more Catwoman, as I felt she stole every scene that she was in.

Joseph Gordon Levitt and the "Robin" Issue: He's grown up some since he used to see angels in an outfield. While I like him as an actor, he's given just a bit too much screen time for a character that was "invented" for the film (especially when some of the principal cast from previous films are so underutilized, more on that later). It's only after they reveal his birth name to be "Robin John Blake" that his prominent presence begins to make more sense (on second viewing, he's almost played as Batman's sidekick towards the end), but I would have preferred that "John Blake" was just an alias for "Dick Grayson" or "Tim Drake" (probably more fitting, given Blake's backstory). I mean, how much cooler would it have been for the fans if that woman said, "Why don't you go by Dick?" Robin... Dick... I can see why a man would be embarrassed to use either name. The way I see it, Christopher Nolan... if you're going to make a character like Robin, have the balls to actually make the character Robin, don't play the "he's Robin, but not really" game with the fans.

Talia al Ghul: In a twist that was obvious from the moment Marion Cotillard was cast as the "invented" Miranda Tate (and solidified by her "restore balance" line early in the film), I'm nevertheless glad that they incorporated Talia into the film. It was a great call-back to Batman Begins and the legacy of Ra's al Ghul. Unfortunately, the reveal wasn't much of a surprise and it caused a clumsy flashback that hurt the pacing of the climax. And I never once felt that Bruce Wayne actually fell in love with Miranda... it seemed he slept with her simply because she was there (and he had Selina on the side as well). The under-developed relationship between Bruce and Talia severely lessened the emotional impact of her betrayal... but like I said, I'm glad they threw Talia into the mix anyway.

Bane: While liberties were taken with the character as far as Venom and his South American roots go, I did like that they followed his League of Shadows association from the comics. This was a realistic depiction of Bane and, some dialogue issues aside, I thought Tom Hardy did a great job in the role. I loved the Knightfall back-breaking moment, but I will say that he was never quite as menacing, terrifying, unsettling, or scary as The Joker in TDK... especially in that goofy winter coat.

Matthew Modine: Thank you, Christopher Nolan, for bringing him back into our lives.

The Lazarus Pit: A more realistic depiction of Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus Pit, or simply "The Pit" in this film, where characters "rise" not from the dead, but from a hellish prison. Again, I liked how the Ra's al Ghul stuff called back to Begins, but the prison scenes do start to kill the pacing of the film's middle hour. Also, I'm not a doctor by any means, but if a vertebrae is protruding from your back... is punching it and hanging the patient in traction all one needs to do to heal a crushed spine? And while I'm at it... why does that damn doctor use the other guy to translate when he clearly can speak some English himself? Oh well... I did like the doctor's point about the need to "fear death" in order to make the climb from the Pit.

Commissioner Gordon: What the hell happened to you? You spent half the film in a bed, then you ordered EVERY cop in the city into the sewers (seriously... EVERY cop? Nobody had the day off??), then you spent the last half fumbling around in the back of a truck! You're essentially a detective and you're the last person in the film to figure out Bruce Wayne is Batman? Even the orphan from 3rd Rock from the Sun figured it out just by putting two and two together! And do you always remember the little kids you gave coats to from thirty years ago? I know I'm picking on Jimmy Gordon here, but seriously... I loved how essential they made his character in Begins and TDK, and here he's reduced to being almost as useless as Gordon was in the Schumacher films.

Dr. Crane/Scarecrow: Good to see you again.

Alfred: Some great performances by Michael Caine in this film. He's always great. But I have issues with Alfred's abrupt departure. Remember in Begins when Bruce asks something like "you haven't abandoned me?" and Alfred smiles and replies, "Never?" That moment nearly brought tears to my eyes the first time I saw it, as Alfred is a constant support system for Bruce (even if he disagrees with Bruce's actions, he is always there for him), and a little more than 8 years later, Alfred is abandoning him? Did Caine have scheduling conflicts? I guess the idea was to strip Bruce of everything he had in order for him to rise again, but Alfred just taking off like that didn't ring true for the character. Alfred is more loyal than that.

Batman/Bruce Wayne: I have my biggest issues with Batman in this film. Mainly the fact that Bruce gives up for 8 years between TDK and this film, and that he "retires" at the end. I know Nolan wanted to give a more conclusive ending to his trilogy, but seriously... Batman is NOT a part-time job for Bruce, nor is it something he would retire from or easily pass the torch to another person. Bruce gives up because of Rachel's death, but did he forget about his parents' death? He says that Batman was no longer needed when Gotham was in "peace time," but really, Bruce... you mean to tell me that crime is completely over with and there are no muggers in dark alleys murdering someone's parents? Batman is not as selfish as they portray Bruce to be here. He endures whatever he must to protect his city and he doesn't give up because his girlfriend died. Plus, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be banging that bomb around as much as you were... because it's a BOMB. (And somedays, you just can't get rid of a bomb!)

I know it sounds like I'm ripping this film to shreds, and most of it is just fanboy bitching, but I did enjoy the majority of it. It had some great action, some great scenes, and Catwoman and Bane were both realized exceptionally well in Nolan's universe. I can't really fault the direction, cinematography, music, or technical merits of this film, as they were all top-notch and what is to be expected from Nolan. My issues stem from the story level and it casts some doubt that Nolan and his brother don't quite fully understand the Batman legacy as well as we might have thought. I think he understands well enough, but he misses the point when it comes to Bruce's ultimate legacy as Batman. Bruce is Batman. Batman is not a mask that just anyone can wear. He swore an oath to his parents to protect the city they loved so much. He doesn't give up for 8 years or go into retirement. But, I guess Nolan had to do something that made it so that he wouldn't have to continue making more Batman films, and he certainly made it difficult for WB to make another one without him.

I've heard several people hail Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy as the best trilogy of all time. I think that's a little premature... let's see how it stands the test of time. I will concede that it is one of the most consistent, well-produced, and concise trilogies and that it deserves to be listed among the best trilogies of all time... but I don't feel it's "the absolute best." Nolan's films are just a bit too laden with plot holes, extraneous characters, pacing issues, and a dismal, heavy-handed mood for me to so easily call it the "best trilogy of all time."

Okay, so I'm done ranting... here's my breakdown of the films in the trilogy...

Batman Begins: A good start, great depictions of all characters, a great twist reveal of Ra's al Ghul, a goofy "water toxin" subplot, and an unnecessary character in Rachel Dawes.

The Dark Knight: Excellent second act. Legitimized the superhero genre with Academy Award recognition. Heath Ledger's Joker is inspired and unmatched. Awesome evolution of Harvey Dent into Two-Face. Unfortunately, Rachel Dawes is still hanging around (but they rectify that) and the film doesn't quite know how to build to a climax (will it end with the warehouse explosion, or the hospital explosion, or the boat explosion, or the Joker fight, or the Harvey Dent showdown?). I still feel it runs one act too long (the boat sequence in particular), but I'll forgive it because of how awesome the rest is.

The Dark Knight Rises: A so-so finale. Catwoman and Bane... awesome. Robin-but-not-really-because-Nolan-lacks-the-balls-to-actually-commit-to-including-Robin... a little lame. Callbacks to Ra's al Ghul, the League of Shadows, and Talia al Ghul... nice. Lack of stuff to do for the previous lead characters (Gordon, Alfred, Lucius Fox)... weak. Alfred abandoning the only family he has left and the person he vowed to protect... out of character. Bruce selfishly taking an 8-year hiatus and then retiring to live it up with Selina in Italy... very out of character. However, Nolan doesn't have multiple climaxes this time around (he replaces them with a few plot holes though) and once again proves he is a solid director, even if the script has some issues.

Anyway, enough of my stupid ramblings... who else has some thoughts?

Ok, I've seen it twice so far and let me start with the positive points:

First off, I felt The Dark Knight was almost too "separate" from Batman Begins in terms of theme and style, but The Dark Knight Rises actually does a terrific job in bringing all three of them closer by merging the more "fantastic" side of BB with the more "realistic" side of TDK.

Tom Hardy was terrific as Bane. He doesn't compare to the Joker simply because the whole emphasis of the 2nd movie is placed on the villain, and this 3rd installment isn't meant to be about the villain. I didn't have any trouble understanding his voice other than the first scene in the plane (which I understood completely on my second viewing). It might take some getting used to for some, but it's still incredibly intimidating and just brilliantly done. Physically he's even more intimidating, not only in muscle, but in his demeanor. He gives as great a performance as anyone wearing a mouth-covering-mask can ever give.

I felt Catwoman was underused and sometimes even rushed (she pretty much falls inexplicably in love with Bruce/Batman 10 minutes into the movie), but Anne Hathaway was still great in the role.

John Blake. The first time I saw him in the trailer I just knew he was Robin. I thought Nolan would introduce him more subtlety (like something awful might happen where he'd have to enter some witness protection program and change his name to Dick Grayson), but I guess he thought the casual movie goer would just say "Dick who?". On the other hand, maybe didn't even intend for him to be the actual "Robin", but instead make it clear that someone, anyone, was going to carry out Batman's legacy. That being said, his character is perfectly built throughout the movie that it feels completely natural.

Also on that note, "Robin" entering the batcave brings to full circle Bruce's original intention of creating a legacy that went beyond Batman.

Now on the negative side, the film does have it's flaws. But I think it's only because a film of this scale and this ambition can't be done without sacrificing things. Nolan's talent as a director is still being able to bring the film together in spite of them. The Dark Knight is also completely packed with flaws but it also manages to come out great because of everything else it gets so right.

In the end, I'd give:
Batman Begins a 9/10
The Dark Knight 10/10
The Dark Knight Rises 9.5/10




Also, I'd like to point out that while I absolutely LOVED The Avengers, I cannot for the life of me understand why people are comparing the two...
Other than the fact that they're both summer blockbusters based on comic-books they have almost nothing in common... Batman is arguably not even a superhero and the trilogy deals mostly with ideas about justice, crime and anarchy, while The Avengers is about aliens invading Earth...

To me it was a diiaspointment.

First off why was everything made so obvious from a long way out. As soon as alfred rambled on about seeing bruce in that cafe, who didn't guess the ending. As soon as bruce told Blake that he should wear a mask, who didn't guess he was gonna be Robin

The thing that was the begist spoiler for me, when bruce went to see the doctor as a cripple he was told he body was shot, that just about every bit of cartillage and bone was on its last legs, slap on a caliper on his knee and he is as good as knew. But worse, has a scrap with bane, ends up a cripple and chucked down a pit, gets his back fixed, and did the doctor sort out his knee or did bane take pity and leave on his knee brace when he removed all of his clothes.

The other annoying thing, in a real batman univerese, after telling catwoman about his no guns policy, would he really let her off just because it was Bane that she shot, enough to go off to a new life with her.

Overall i thought it was far to obvious and didn't leave much to the imagination, plus if there gonna do a reboot, what was the point of robin at all

Well, to me it was a huge let down. I know, I shouldn't have built up my expectations - but actually I love most of the movie - the tone, the stories, the things that actually derives from the comics, even if Nolan tries to hide it. (the returning after 8 (well it was 10 years in Miller's TDK Returns years)
Bane's underground army - who said the Mutant gang from Miller's TDK Returns? What I don't like is the out of character stuff, as explained by Andy above.

I have to say, I was furious with the ending, and almost left the cinema. I dunno why the only way to try and make interesting stories for DC includes killing off their main character. First Soops, and now Batman. There is only one Batman and that is Bruce Wayne.
Actually one might argue that Bruce Wayne is the mask, while Batman is the real Bruce. He would never retire or sell off Wayne Manor with his parent's graves. His 'crusade' against crime is based on his personal story. Even if someone else where to enter the crime fighting alongside (or after) Bruce what would their inclination towards jumping around with a large cape and cowl be? None. One could just as well throw the bat-arangs without the costume to hinder movements.

The Blake story is unnecessary, and even shows that Nolan didn't quite get all the aspects of the Batman universe. If you wanna include Robin do so, don't make him someone else.

kernie82 wrote:

QUOTE (kernie82 @ Jul 31 2012, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nikerun, I would argue that while DKR is a better piece of filmmaking and (possibly) storytelling, Avengers was much more fun to watch and wasn't as dreary and heavy-handed as Nolan's films are. For me, the "fun factor" is what helps Avengers edge out DKR for my fave film of the summer... but just barely.


Excellent review, SXS! You're more forgiving than I am probably going to be when I get to my thoughts, but you also saw things in a way that I didn't, and it's making me re-assess my views a little bit.

I think you have captured the difference of The Avengers and Dark Knight Rises perfectly, and I would agree, but, and I know this isn't the discussion, comparing these 2 films is like comparing apples to oranges.
I love them both and will watch them again and again, enjoying both.
For me I can't split them because they are so different and yet they are both what I was hoping for

I agree with SXS's review, he nailed it IMHO, very very well written, great to read, concise and informative.

I know some of you guys didn't really enjoy the movie, and I'm sorry you didn't.
I really enjoyed it, I read Batman as kid but haven't for many years, that probably gives way to the fact how much I have enjoyed this trilogy.

To me, in the comics once they started introducing this character Ras al Ghul who could come back from the dead, and Bane who was almost super human in strength fed by that drug Venom, well that just didn't quite sit right for me in Batman, maybe in Superman for example it would have.
It seemed to me that they did that just to give themselves a way of destroying Batman/Bruce Wayne, for no other reason than he was too good.I didn't like that.

Batman always had great morals.
Was super intelligent.
Was a master of all forms of unarmed combat.
Created his own car, computer, tools of the trade etc, I do not recall a Lucias Fox from my readings, but am old and may have forgotten.
Was a detective who rivalled Sherlock Holmes, and yes of course you know how often he was referred to as the Dark Knight Detective.
That's the Batman I know and love.
So once Bane came along and broke Batmans back and became known as the man who broke the bat, that was it for me, I drifted away, plus I guess I developed other interests, and work took more and more of my time etc.
I was happy with my old comics and memories.

So when Batman Begins came around I thought, hmmmm we'll see what this is like, for me it's a terrific movie, Batman was back Sure a few changes from what I remember, but they made it good, they made it make sense, it was cool, I thought, and still do, think it was great.

The Dark Knight came along, I was a bit concerned, the Joker, how were they going to have him be the perfect foil, enemy to Batman, Heath Ledger??...Really?...Um...ah....wow, really? I couldn't see it, then I saw the movie, WOW!!!!....Simply awesome....the only down side for me was Aaron Eckhart, he was alright but just never really nailed for me.

The Dark Knight Rises is a wonderful conclusion, it IMO takes us inside Bruce Wayne's mind in a way, it's like everything happening in this movie is him, his inner struggles , demons, regrets, hopes, dreams, nightmares, positives, negatives, win, failure, peace...

Alfred leaving wasn't him deserting Bruce, it was him as he said, doing the only, in his mind that he could, to try and save Bruce. Alfred wanted Bruce to be safe and happy and enjoy his life.

That is how Alfred "failed" because at that time Bruce was not happy and enjoying life, at the end, finally Bruce was happy, content with himself at last and the fact that he had left Gotham with Batman still there. I liked the ending.

I don't think the John Blake character was ever intended in this movie, or the future, to become Robin. The name Robin was thrown in as a tribute to Robin, the same as the football players name on his shirt is Ward, a nod to Burt Ward, at least that's what I think.

I do like how they emphasised for the movie that Batman is a symbol not a man. However I do admit that to me Batman IS Bruce Wayne and vice versa and always will be.
Also I agree that Anne Hathaway was awesome, she pretty much stole the show like Heath Ledger did, again I was concerned at her casting, but happy Nolan knew what he was doing.

All in all these are the Batman movies I had been waiting for, to me, in my mind, while yes a few plot holes exist and the very odd thing could be different here or there, I have no complaints, Nolan has kept them well earthed and real. Well one real complaint, Maggie Gyllenhaal.

Now I'm happy to admit there are many things about Batman I don't know these days, back characters, stories etc, so I am far from an expert and some of what I've written here might make me look like a total dick, and you can all school me if you want, but the point is, from my memories of when I was a kid reading my Batman comics, and Justice League etc, what I got in THIS movie trilogy works for me and it works very well.

One final thing, my son, who is 21 years old, has never read any Batman comics or watched any Batman cartoons rates this as his favourite trilogy.